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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
For those in the know.. I was surprised not to see a certain update on the bomber.. did you guys just forget to implement it? I thought it was working even without machf's 'upgrade'.


(I'm assuming that this level is identical to the one I originally uploaded.)

The detached ball-turret is there Draco, along the beach front. You're looking for the wrong thing, like I told you before.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:04 am 
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Heh I see, I'll go look.. soon as I get back in the level..

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:46 am 
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It's there, I remember seeing it in TresEd :P

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
Chris wrote:
dinosaur sound effects always sounded like the creature was right next to me rather than at a distance

That's why I recommend modders use existing dinosaur sounds primarily whenever possible.. we can't get the new sounds to use proper distance volume calculation and no one knows why for sure. And yeah, it is freaky :lol: but also a bit annoying when you hear the sound and you know the dino is many meters off.. :? EastDock's dilo suffers the same, of course.


That is something that I would definitely like to see a fix to. It's seems a waste to have a new dinosaur but have it use unoriginal sounds.


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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:58 am 
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machf, just curious, do you have any possible clues or hints on what might be different about the retail sounds?
I should point out that the CRAY looping "run" sound also does not appear to have volume-distance calculation. You may remember it ends suddenly in the retail when you leave the room; the sound is used in ED around the um.. motion sensors. That one happens to be in ambient.tpa but likely the same rules apply..

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
machf, just curious, do you have any possible clues or hints on what might be different about the retail sounds?

I started looking at them (actually, at the TC Isle ones, to see what's different) yesterday, but got quickly bored since I'd need to make alisting of all the sounds used in TC Isle first for reference... I'll look at the retail ones now.
Quote:
I should point out that the CRAY looping "run" sound also does not appear to have volume-distance calculation. You may remember it ends suddenly in the retail when you leave the room; the sound is used in ED around the um.. motion sensors. That one happens to be in ambient.tpa but likely the same rules apply..

No, ambient sounds are played by a different command, remember?

Let's see, the first retail dino vocals I've checked appear to be all uncompressed PCM, 22050Hz, 16-bit, mono samples. Some have been compressed as IMA ADPCM. but they're still 22050Hz, 16-bit, mono samples.
Hmmm, I checked the dilophosaurus ones from TC Isle, apparently some are uncompressed PCM, 22050Hz, 8-bit, mono samples. Here's the listing:
Code:
628 - PCM 44100 8 m
629 - PCM 44100 8 m
630 - PCM 22050 16 m
631 - PCM 22050 16 m
632 - PCM 22050 16 m
633 - PCM 22050 16 m
634 - PCM 44100 8 m
635 - PCM 44100 8 m
636 - PCM 44100 8 m
637 - PCM 44100 8 m
638 - PCM 44100 16 m
639 - PCM 22050 8 m
640 - PCM 22050 16 m
641 - PCM 44100 8 m
642 - PCM 44100 8 m
643 - PCM 22050 16 m
644 - PCM 44100 8 m
645 - PCM 44100 8 m
646 - PCM 22050 16 m
647 - PCM 22050 16 m
648 - PCM 22050 16 m
649 - PCM 44100 8 m

Also, inside the TPA file, the retail vocal sounds have various float values (0.5 on some, 1.75 on others, 1.5 on yet other ones) at offset 0x000C for each sound block, while other sounds have 0 - and the newly added sounds have 0 too. Since the original File Formats doc doesn't state the purpose of those values, I think it's a good guess to say that they are somehow connected to the distance effect - probably a distance attenuation factor, with "0" meaning it doesn't change the volume with increasing distance.

And I noticed that TC Isle is using a modified retail TPA... maybe it would be a good idea to copy the ones from the Trespasser folder and use additive TPAs instead, since it's using ATX anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Quote:
No, ambient sounds are played by a different command, remember?

Uh-huh, :yum: that's why I made the note about the TPA of origin. The point there is that they have volume calculation too.. and I thought perhaps it was a similar matter... but now that I think of it, all the ambient sounds I put into ED got faded volume calculation ingame, so I guess it's unrelated.

Quote:
Also, inside the TPA file, the retail vocal sounds have various float values (0.5 on some, 1.75 on others, 1.5 on yet other ones) at offset 0x000C for each sound block, while other sounds have 0 - and the newly added sounds have 0 too. Since the original File Formats doc doesn't state the purpose of those values, I think it's a good guess to say that they are somehow connected to the distance effect - probably a distance attenuation factor, with "0" meaning it doesn't change the volume with increasing distance.

Aha. I'd say that's probable. The ED additive effects TPA should also be useful to look at, btw.
But yeah, would be useful to generate a general listing (need not be complete I think) for what retail sounds use 0.5, 1.5, and 1.75.. maybe then we can figure what calls for each one. Rex is planning to get to work on a special app of his very soon, btw, in theory one of its functions could be a new sound importer that doesn't use the command prompt, and that allows setting of that value.

Quote:
And I noticed that TC Isle is using a modified retail TPA... maybe it would be a good idea to copy the ones from the Trespasser folder and use additive TPAs instead, since it's using ATX anyway.

Hmm oh, what, you mean have the installer find and copy the retail TPA(s)? I had that idea for JPDS, still might be done to some degree; if it's doable, it would be a good idea. But yeah, I agree. I'd also like to see a full listing sometime.. I'm always finding more Isle sounds listed in t-script I don't remember hearing and can't even use TresEd to listen to.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:09 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
Quote:
No, ambient sounds are played by a different command, remember?

Uh-huh, :yum: that's why I made the note about the TPA of origin. The point there is that they have volume calculation too.. and I thought perhaps it was a similar matter... but now that I think of it, all the ambient sounds I put into ED got faded volume calculation ingame, so I guess it's unrelated.

Quote:
Also, inside the TPA file, the retail vocal sounds have various float values (0.5 on some, 1.75 on others, 1.5 on yet other ones) at offset 0x000C for each sound block, while other sounds have 0 - and the newly added sounds have 0 too. Since the original File Formats doc doesn't state the purpose of those values, I think it's a good guess to say that they are somehow connected to the distance effect - probably a distance attenuation factor, with "0" meaning it doesn't change the volume with increasing distance.

Aha. I'd say that's probable.

I've modified the Effects.tpa file with a hex editor, giving all those new entries a corresponding value of 1.5. The Effects.tpa file is 16MB long, compressed it's 12MB, I could upload it to RapidShare later if you want to listen and see if it makes any difference. It probably doe, but I'd rather have other people listen to it too and give their opinion...

UPDATE2: you can download the edited Effects.tpa file from here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/148190986/Effects.rar
Extract and replace the one that was installed during installation of the second beta. Report on this thread how it sounds now.

Quote:
The ED additive effects TPA should also be useful to look at, btw.
But yeah, would be useful to generate a general listing (need not be complete I think) for what retail sounds use 0.5, 1.5, and 1.75.. maybe then we can figure what calls for each one.

Yes, I've thought of making a quick program that will dump the whole contents of the Effects.tpa file (minus the Foley table) to a text file... you can get the names for each entry from my other listing.
Quote:
Rex is planning to get to work on a special app of his very soon, btw, in theory one of its functions could be a new sound importer that doesn't use the command prompt, and that allows setting of that value.

I guess I'll be working with him on that, we talked about it. But he needs to wait until I finish exploring the format.
Quote:
Quote:
And I noticed that TC Isle is using a modified retail TPA... maybe it would be a good idea to copy the ones from the Trespasser folder and use additive TPAs instead, since it's using ATX anyway.

Hmm oh, what, you mean have the installer find and copy the retail TPA(s)? I had that idea for JPDS, still might be done to some degree; if it's doable, it would be a good idea. But yeah, I agree.

Exactly. I guess in the end it depends on whichever software you use to make the installer.
Quote:
I'd also like to see a full listing sometime.. I'm always finding more Isle sounds listed in t-script I don't remember hearing and can't even use TresEd to listen to.

You can if you copy the TC Isle TPA files into the Trespasser folder... that's where TresEd looks for them. of course, they'll overwrite the retail ones, so you better be careful with that. OR you can edit your registry so it points to the TC Isle folder instead of the Trespasser one (TresEd gets the location from the registry).

UPDATE: well, here are text dumps of all 4 TPA files. Interesting to look at them this way now. I now realized something: remember thos "WBOR" strings that serve as markers inside the TPA files? We've been reading them backwards all this time... they actually mean "ROBW", or "Rob Wyatt". Now there's something else to ask him... he must have designed the file format too.


Attachments:
TPAdumps.rar [33.38 KiB]
Downloaded 227 times

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Have downloaded the new effects.tpa... will report back after the next time I play TC_Isle, kinda busy atm.

machf wrote:
OR you can edit your registry so it points to the TC Isle folder instead of the Trespasser one (TresEd gets the location from the registry).

Heyyyyy, that's swell!!! I'll be doing that for JPDS, then.. :| Is that the same directory it automatically seeks out level files in, despite where you opened them from?

Quote:
remember thos "WBOR" strings that serve as markers inside the TPA files? We've been reading them backwards all this time... they actually mean "ROBW", or "Rob Wyatt". Now there's something else to ask him... he must have designed the file format too.

Ah, I don't remember those but that's a pretty neat find.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
Have downloaded the new effects.tpa... will report back after the next time I play TC_Isle, kinda busy atm.

Everybody seems to be busy ATM, there have been virtually no posts today...
Quote:
machf wrote:
OR you can edit your registry so it points to the TC Isle folder instead of the Trespasser one (TresEd gets the location from the registry).

Heyyyyy, that's swell!!! I'll be doing that for JPDS, then.. :| Is that the same directory it automatically seeks out level files in, despite where you opened them from?

Yes.
Quote:
Quote:
remember thos "WBOR" strings that serve as markers inside the TPA files? We've been reading them backwards all this time... they actually mean "ROBW", or "Rob Wyatt". Now there's something else to ask him... he must have designed the file format too.

Ah, I don't remember those but that's a pretty neat find.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:04 pm 
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Roger. Btw.. slightly topical.. I am attempting to use your reverse CRC-32 tool and failing miserably. I'm trying to get a string for the default dino vocal.. the only value I have to work with is 8f4fea56 and I don't seem to be getting anything useful from it. Matt can't figure it out either.. :?

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:45 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
Roger. Btw.. slightly topical.. I am attempting to use your reverse CRC-32 tool and failing miserably. I'm trying to get a string for the default dino vocal..

What for, if the official string is already known? You don't need another anymore...
Code:
  276  8f4fea56  no   "PLACEHOLDER VOCAL" (same as #186)

And MOST IMPORTANTLY... this sound is actually just a pointer to the basketball sound (#186), if you replace it, you'll be replacing the basketball too, so you better just change the pointer instead, so that it points to the "MISSING" sound (#0).
Quote:
the only value I have to work with is 8f4fea56 and I don't seem to be getting anything useful from it. Matt can't figure it out either.. :?

Place that in the third box, the one that says "CRC" under "CRC-32 reversing". Check the box that says "String" further down, if it's blank it means there aren't any valid 4-character strings that match that value, so you'll need to try with additional random characters. See that other box a little further down, the one which says "# RND Chars"? It's initially set to 1. Check the path and filename in the bottommost box, "FIle"; once you click on the button labeled "Crack", the results will be saved there, you can change the file and pathname with the "Select" button. If you get an empty file using "# RND Chars" set to 1, change it to 2 and click on "Crack" again. If you still get an empty file, try again with 3. I don't recommend you going past 5 random characters, unless you have a fast computer and a large HDD.

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:11 pm 
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machf wrote:
Draconisaurus wrote:
Roger. Btw.. slightly topical.. I am attempting to use your reverse CRC-32 tool and failing miserably. I'm trying to get a string for the default dino vocal..

What for, if the official string is already known? You don't need another anymore...
Code:
  276  8f4fea56  no   "PLACEHOLDER VOCAL" (same as #186)

Interesting, well FYI, it was not in the text file that was loaded on your site when I was doing this the other day. I also looked up the post when I remembered you discovered it, but neither Matt nor I were able to figure what you determined the name to be, just the wording I guess.

Quote:
And MOST IMPORTANTLY... this sound is actually just a pointer to the basketball sound (#186), if you replace it, you'll be replacing the basketball too, so you better just change the pointer instead, so that it points to the "MISSING" sound (#0).

Oh crap, haha, that is important. How do we change the pointer?! Matt is the one who needs to know..

Quote:
Quote:
the only value I have to work with is 8f4fea56 and I don't seem to be getting anything useful from it. Matt can't figure it out either.. :?

Place that in the third box, the one that says "CRC" under "CRC-32 reversing". Check the box that says "String" further down, if it's blank it means there aren't any valid 4-character strings that match that value, so you'll need to try with additional random characters. See that other box a little further down, the one which says "# RND Chars"? It's initially set to 1. Check the path and filename in the bottommost box, "FIle"; once you click on the button labeled "Crack", the results will be saved there, you can change the file and pathname with the "Select" button. If you get an empty file using "# RND Chars" set to 1, change it to 2 and click on "Crack" again. If you still get an empty file, try again with 3. I don't recommend you going past 5 random characters, unless you have a fast computer and a large HDD.

Going to save that description for future reference...

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 Post subject: Re: TC_Isle Beta 2?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
Quote:
And MOST IMPORTANTLY... this sound is actually just a pointer to the basketball sound (#186), if you replace it, you'll be replacing the basketball too, so you better just change the pointer instead, so that it points to the "MISSING" sound (#0).

Oh crap, haha, that is important. How do we change the pointer?! Matt is the one who needs to know..
I could do with doing something about dions loudly bonking in DP too...

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