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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:31 am 
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T-Rex Killer
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Well, I've had them lying around for quite some time, it's just that I grabbed them now to test that square from the Plains file... in the past I've used some of them to start levels for Carnivores 2.

Though they work better in Trespasser since we can adjust the vertical scale...

Anyway, here they are in 512*512 subdivisions (I left out the .trr files since they unnecessarily increase the filesize by ~3 times):


Attachments:
StHelensAfter512.zip [438.21 KiB]
Downloaded 38 times
StHelensBefore512.zip [441.12 KiB]
Downloaded 35 times
Oahu512.zip [206.01 KiB]
Downloaded 37 times
Hawaii512.zip [186.53 KiB]
Downloaded 38 times
Titicaca512.zip [427.65 KiB]
Downloaded 36 times
Volcano512.zip [295.39 KiB]
Downloaded 36 times
Roraima512.zip [462.01 KiB]
Downloaded 39 times
GreatCanyon512.zip [494.24 KiB]
Downloaded 38 times
Lima512.zip [190.18 KiB]
Downloaded 40 times
Arequipa512.zip [399.15 KiB]
Downloaded 37 times
RapaNui512.zip [107.69 KiB]
Downloaded 39 times

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:21 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Well, as they say, "there's no kill like overkill".
I went ahead and imported the 2048*2048 heightmap with TresEd, to compare the results with the method used by the TresTeam using displacement maps. I found out some important things.

  • TresEd rotates heightmaps by 180 degrees. No wonder I always needed to rotate TresEd-extracted heightmaps first to match Zandor's map...
  • Here's a screenshot of the same location fromn the earlier screenshot for detail comparison:
    Spoiler: show
    Attachment:
    VallesMarinerisImage2.jpg
    VallesMarinerisImage2.jpg [ 209.38 KiB | Viewed 1754 times ]
  • Exporting the terrain as a TPM file from TresEd resulted in a 246MB (!) TPM file... for comparison, that TPM I created containing all Trespasser levels (the one that took almost 30 hours) was 281MB, JPDS's 4096m*4096m terrain saved as a TPM was 38MB, the TPM from exporting the terrain previously created in MAX with 512*512 subdivisions was 60MB, the one with 128*128 subdivisions was 3.8MB (so I'm guessing one with 256*256 subdivisions would be like 15MB), and Trespasser's terrains overall tend to be under 10MB when saved as TPM files...
  • Tried importing the 246MB TPM into MAX to generate a TRR file and fix the errors using GUIapp, but it's still loading after almost 2 hours...
  • Also tried exporting a TPM from MAX after importing a TRI file of the 512*512 subdivisions terrain, and yes, you guessed right, still waiting after over an hour, too...

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:40 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Wouldn't it be cool if we had a database all all sorts of technical specs about Tres such as this... I guess it's floating around in the collective subconscious, too heavy for us to carry into IRL... *sigh*

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:29 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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More tests...

I used 256*256 subdivisions, that gave me a 1.5MB .TRR file, a 144KB .WTD file and a 3.05MB .TRI file after converting the WTD. But the detail is lousy, here's what the same location from before looks like:
Spoiler: show
Attachment:
VallesMarinerisImage4.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage4.jpg [ 172.94 KiB | Viewed 1747 times ]


I also tried resampling the original 2048*2048 heightmap to 1024*1024 and imported that with TresEd, here's what that same location looks like:
Spoiler: show
Attachment:
VallesMarinerisImage3.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage3.jpg [ 212.17 KiB | Viewed 1747 times ]

I then exported the resulting terrain as a 105MB .TPM file. I imported that file into MAX (took maybe an hour, much more manageable than the 246MB one), and exported it as a 19.8MB .TRR file. Then I used GUIapp to convert that file into a 977KB .WTD file, which is "fixed" compared to the one just imported with TresEd. Here's a screenshot from the same location:
Spoiler: show
Attachment:
VallesMarinerisImage5.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage5.jpg [ 206.62 KiB | Viewed 1747 times ]

I used GUIapp to convert the terran into a 24.6MB .TRI file, then importedit back into MAX for comparison purposes. The one from the .TRI file has 380600 vertices and 759904 faces, while the one from the .TPM file had 951599 vertices and 845551 faces, and looked rougher.

If anybody wants to try it, I've attached the fixed WTD file too:

Attachment:
Mars001-1024.zip [894.26 KiB]
Downloaded 42 times



EDIT: and just in case, here's an in-game screenshot:
Spoiler: show
Attachment:
VallesMarinerisTPass002.jpg
VallesMarinerisTPass002.jpg [ 369.41 KiB | Viewed 1746 times ]

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files


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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:39 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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I'm sure Mars would be proud... At some point (possibly now), you will need to post this publically if you have any hope of would-be modders eventually putting this to use. I, myself, am unsure of what time I would wish for a Mars-terrain-based level. Perhaps if a Planet of the Apes mod ever gets support.

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:27 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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I thought most modders had already become admins by now... :wink: I wouldn't certainly want to let the general public know anything until at least there's a plan.

And I'm testing first to decide what would be the best option for the terrain... remember, these are 8 terrains, I'd need to get all 8 ready first. I still need to give the 2048*2048 TPM import a try, BTW...

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files


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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:01 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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So, I managed to import the 2048*2048 .TPM file into MAX after several hour, the resulting mesh has 2132776 vertices and 1895790 faces. Then I exported it as a 44.4MB .TRR file.

The problem is that, when using GUIapp to convert the .TRR file into a .WTD file, the memory heap ran out of space a little past the middle of the file... I'm asking Lee if it's possible to somehow increase heap size. Until then, it's not possible to fix the terrain generated that way...

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files


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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:39 am 
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T-Rex Killer
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Don't really have enough details to go by but it makes me wonder if the terrain it's trying to create is a little too detailed...

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:24 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Just over 2 million vertices... would you call that "too detailed"? :wink:
2132776 vertices and 1895790 faces, to be more precise.
Square size being 2048*2048, it's about half the theoretical maximum... (4198401 vertices, or 2049*2049, and 4194304 faces, or 2048*2048)

I split the terrain in 4 sections, "ul" ("upper left" as seen from the top in MAX) with 712671v/633509f, "ur" (üpper right") with 849261v/754886f, "ll" ("lower left") with 356321v/316735f and "lr" )"lower right") with 214523v/190660f. Those were each converted independently into WTDs without problems, then after that converted into .TRI files and imported back into MAX, and became:
ul:290442v/579543f
ur:339703v/678189f
ll:148445v/296092f
lr:92355v/184042f

Unfortunately, after merging them together into a single terrain (870945v/1737866f), exporting it as a new .TRR file and attempting to convert it into a new .WTD file, the same error showed up...

Interestingly, JPDS's terrain, being 4096*4096 in size, has only 121460 vertices and 242374 triangles... (that's after the "fixing" process, the original as you made it has 344256 vertices and 305981 faces)


And for comparison, the version imported from a 1024*1024 heightmap (resampled from the original 2048/2048 one) has 951599 vertices and 845551 faces before fixing, and 380600v/759904f after fixing...

It would seem that the problem, rather than the number of vertices, has to do with the number of faces... probably when they get past 1 million (or maybe 1048576, which is 1024*1024).

BTW, the heap size, which I omitted mentioning before, is set to 64MB.

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files


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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:10 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Made another test importing the 1024*1024 heightmap from the area around Lake Titicaca with TresEd, exported it as a .TPM and imported it into MAX, turned out to be a mesh with 1143805 vertices and 1016517 faces (less than 1024*1024=1048576 faces), then exported it as a .TRR file. This time GUIapp had no problem converting it into a proper .WTD file, then I used GUIapp again to convert it into .TRI file and imported it back into MAX, turned out to have 440981 vertices and 879927 faces.

The .WTD file has been attached to this post in case anyone wants to try it.

Attachment:
Titicaca1024.zip [970.04 KiB]
Downloaded 38 times


I must add that I've been analyzing the MaxScripts and found out that the reason the TresTeam developers used a 128*128 subdivisions square with displacement maps was because afterwards they applied tessellation to add further detail... by comparison, I've concluded that the best detail is achieved by using the method I described, importing a 1024*1024 heightmap with TresEd and then fixing the terrain using MAX or Gmax with the corresponding import and export MaxScripts together with GUIapp.

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:49 pm 
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So, I'm moving this topic to the "Trespasser levels and design" section, so the general public can have alook. Even though I haven't finished converting those Martian maps yet...

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files


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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:56 pm 
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machf wrote:
So, I'm moving this topic to the "Trespasser levels and design" section, so the general public can have alook. Even though I haven't finished converting those Martian maps yet...

A good move, I think. Someone ought to have use for these. :)

Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:35 am 
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T-Rex Killer
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TheIdiot wrote:
Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.

So far, it hasn't crashed. Remmeber, these terrains have already gone through GUIapp and are "Trespasser-compliant", so to speak.

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:56 pm 
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machf wrote:
TheIdiot wrote:
Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.

So far, it hasn't crashed. Remmeber, these terrains have already gone through GUIapp and are "Trespasser-compliant", so to speak.


Even if GUIApp converts them without errors it doesn't guaranteed that they will work without issues ingame. The full island works fine to convert in GUIApp but unless you optimize the "stairs" IJ puzzle it will crash ingame around that area.

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 Post subject: Re: Some terrains
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:53 pm 
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When I checked out the early versions of Mars you put together, I definitely noticed areas every here and there of random terrain over-detail, surely something to do with what happens between input and output. So definitely, these ought to be seen as raw resources to be optimized and customized.

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